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deadtreekid
gee, i wonder what the author's stance is on this issue... hmm... no negativity in the blue option, and... yes! there's a horribly in the red one! author's name is... who'd have guessed it? debunkatheists! i don't want to go to a heaven if it's full of stereotypical self-righteous christians eternally chanting "i told you sooooo~" :P
DebunkingAtheists
You do understand its called Hell for a reason right? Hell may have the exact thing you do NOT want to spend eternity with.
blombaloooba
Well then it wouldn't be heaven, would it?
Marmadukes
This is pascal's Wager. The problem lies in the fact that people worship hundreds of gods, from hundreds of religions, with hundreds of different rules. I would rather be a generous, tolerant, and skeptical atheist my whole life simply for the good of humanity.
DebunkingAtheists
Pascal's wager is a bad bet. That would mean God is a probiblity. That is NOT the case at all. It was worded to invoke a reaction. Truth is you already know God exists. People deny this, but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Viperxiii
people have no knowledge of anything close to what we all call god, all religions are false as they are man made thoughts and thus are flawed, the existence of a "god" will never be known even after death. a higher power may or may not exist, but he is not what you think of him to be, to be judgmental is a human trait and thus below a "god" so to judge someone to go to heaven or hell is not a capability of a "god". do not call yourself by a label because then you will conform yourself into that label (christian/atheist)
Idiocracy
Um, there's no negativity in the blue because it's "Believe in god and find out it's a lie when you die, or Don't have faith and find out he's real when you die". Think you read into this way to much.
Christian
Debunk atheists< do atheists go to hell? And if so why? If I burn in hell for ETERNTY for dying for what I believe in< where is gods graciousness
DebunkingAtheists
Christian, God does not send people to hell for denying what they're not certain about. Hell's gates will be locked from the inside. To blame God is misdirecting. You need a mirror to properly place the blame.
Jace Curran
Where's the bias?!?
Austin
Ugh, the people on this site.
DebunkingAtheists
I know right!? Many lost and deficient people in denial. :7p
DellaFrienda
Just because someone has a different belief than you, doesnt mean they in denial of what you believe
DebunkingAtheists
That fallacy is called an irrelevant thesis. They are in denial of the revealed truth. How do you account for ANY absolutes in your worldview? How can you know ANYTHING to be absolutely true?
SidMathers
Well who says it has to be christians, it could be jewish or muslim, Allah is just the arabic saying of god as Elohim, El, El Shaddai, Adonai, Elyon, and Avinu are the many names for God
DebunkingAtheists
We have said this before, but I will repeat for your sake. We accept the Christian faith as the grounds of all logic, because we accept the notion that scripture teaches there is only one God, he's the creator of all things and thus he created logic. For the unbeliever, he/she must first believe in Christ and repent before they can ever come to any conclusions at all about anything at all. If they have no basis in which to place their faith in logic or exists then they've yet to understand that logic or matter exists because their faith is based in logic and reason itself, yet you can't use either to explain where either originated from (enter circular reasoning). They must assume and accept that both logic and reason originated from a single omnipotent source because without that source, there is no logic or reason, man didn't create logic or reason, we only use them as the tools that were provided to us by God. If we say there is no God, then we put the cart before the horse and look pretty stupid... As for which God (which I believe is where this argument gets hung up) that falls to the legitimacy of the scriptures and the foundation of where the God you serve comes from. I lean on the God of the Bible, not only because he revealed himself to me and I chose to accept and believe on his son, and because the endless truth IN scriptures let alone the countless prophecies that God's word has spoken that have come true and are still coming true. The God of Israel and the Bible is real and the only true God, not because I say so, but because He does.
Shanna
that would be your hell not heaven genius...
weirdo
What if your version of Heaven is my version of Hell?
Tom Swift
If i go to hell ill be with people i love (my families atheist)
DebunkingAtheists
My Dad said something along the same lines of "I am glad I will be in Hell, that is where all my friends are" which is stupid to me. Do you think there are reunions in Hell? Do you think it will be a joyous occasion to "meet up" with loved ones? Its called Hell for a reason. It is separation from Love, that is Hell. It is despair. Isolation, separation, and condemnation describes Hell. Certainly better then, and not "A celebration." Silly Atheist logic.
John Welch
if you don't want to go to a heaven filled with christians chanting 'I told you so', why did you pick the option that gives you just that?
DebunkingAtheists
If they are Christians they would not be saying "I told you so" But "Welcome! Praise the Lord!" "If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for." ~C.H. Spurgeon
JethroKress
You do realize that a person who lives a religious life and repents for his sins and gets to live in heaven wouldn't be someone who says "I told you soooo". Pricks don't go to heaven
Seth T
If there is a hell, ill see all you shits there.
SomeGuy
"We accept the Christian faith as the grounds of all logic" That soft rumbling you fee beneath your feet is Aristotle is spinning in his grave, redlining at 20,000 rpms
DebunkingAtheists
Just tell us how you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular? How do you know Aristotle's reasoning is valid? Could he be wrong? If not, why not?
Bram
DebunkinAtheists: If I live a good life, as a good person (without believing in god) and he doesn't let me into heaven, he isn't worthy of the term 'God'... If there is a God (yes, i'm atheist) did he let people like Gandhi in? If not, who is he to judge?
DebunkingAtheists
Hi Bram, Ray has an analogy: "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day." God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sin against the God that they do know.
slayer123129
DebunkingAthiests i Understand that you bring up many good points on athiest hell you even made me give up for a second but then a point came to me i don't care if god exist or doesn't exist i don't care if i go to heaven or hell all that i care about that i live a happy life with happy moments and worrying about going to heaven is a horrible thought so i am just going to give up on faith in entirely i am not going to be abnogstic i am jut going to stop thinking about it
DebunkingAtheists
Thanks for admitting that. It was rightly said by CS Lewis that Hell's gates will be locked from the inside. Salvation is not just for the next life Slayer - Not only did Christ's death and resurrection save souls for eternity, it saves our reasoning now. Again, I beg you to repent and turn from rejecting the God you know exists, and accept the free gift of Jesus Christ's payment for your sins, so that you might be saved from Hell, spend an eternity with God, AND have a firm foundation for your reasoning NOW. God revealed that everyone knows He exists, He created the world. He revealed that His existence is necessary for knowledge, ethics, aesthetics, etc. "The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc. This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
Jeypikoala
In the end we would all go to hell(assuming that it exists), because if there are at least two religions that state that if you do not believe in them you will go to hell, even if you believe in one you would go to hell because of the other one.
DebunkingAtheists
Jeypikoala. You're assuming the two are true. One is obviously true, and one false. You know which one because God has revealed it to us. As I posted at my blog, false religions have stolen from God and not the other way around. False religions have a common denominator and that is there assault on the term "Justification." They are working toward their salvation. We are working as a result of our salvation. A religion that is pure in the sight of God is a "discipline" which results and originates, from God. We do these things as a result of being justified. We do these things because God has declared us "not guilty" because of the passive/active obedience of the Messiah being given to us as a gift. His works are what save us. In contrast, the religions of the world who deny justification seek to bring their "religious" efforts to God to "save" them. We as believers have a beautiful religion because it is a fruit which comes from God. It starts with him and ends with him. Like I said; the religion we show is a result of what God did. It is an external response. For example, we love because he first loved us right? The false religions out there have a completely different gospel. As a result they bring their filthy rags and present them to God thinking they are working their way to God. We have been made clean by the word. The false religions make themselves clean. The God of Israel and the Bible is real and the only true God, not because I say so, but because He does.
Maaz Mahmood
Soooooooooooooo you don't want to go to heaven because you are too proud and don't want to be good i told you so
tuppenycrane
im an athiest, get over it
DebunkingAtheists
tuppenycrane, Knowledge is revealed, otherwise opinion and belief. This is exposed with a simple question, how do you know your reasoning is valid without God or being viciously circular?
Bjor69
I believe in unicorns. Prove they are not real. Any argument thrown at me against their existance will also be valid against the existance of any god.
DebunkingAtheists
Bjor69, My Atheistic worldview does not allow for pink unicorns. You see, if you bring into the argument hypothetical worldviews then so can I, and we get nowhere. Now, how are you absolutely certain your worldview is the correct one? Feelings? Faith? Hunch? Evidences? Or dogma? If you're honest, to yourself more then anyone else, could you be wrong about your worldview that is dirived solely by autonomous reasoning? I am sure you will grant mankind's fallibility so what is making you so certain, to the point of battling and defending it religiously?
DebunkingAtheists
But now that has been said as the more important point, I will add that ...unicorns did exist at one time. Have you ever heard of Rhinoceros unicornis? Folk stories pointed to the Elasmotherium. Look it up.
Max
I don't believe in god sooooooo...
DebunkingAtheists
Max, do you actually think your "belief" has anything to do with, or affects, truth and reality?
Vincent
If ALL books and knowledge of the current world would be gone, the next generations would find out all the elements again, science will start to exist again. But I'm sure your book with the talking snake will be gone forever.
DebunkingAtheists
Are you certain of that? If so, how? If the Bible was not there, you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical. Even if that was the case, I am sure you would concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them. Right?
DebunkingAtheists
Anthony, I am sure you would concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them. Right? What you're claiming is unbiblical. Read Romans 1:18-21 yourself. We ALL know for certain God exists. Otherwise you're calling God a liar.
DebunkingAtheists
God indeed has revealed Himself to all mankind so we know with certainty.
Bjor69
If god is omniscient and omnipotent, he's being a real dick with humanity.
DebunkingAtheists
Bjor69, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs.
IONTOP
See the funny thing is, apparently, Atheists and Religious people have different views on the definition of "knowing"... Because if I lived my life KNOWING there is no God, there is no way to find out I'm wrong... (Knowing vs Thinking difference here)...
DebunkingAtheists
It is the Christian position that God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God.
Scott
I don't recall any point in history where God came out, said hi, shook hands and was like "Sup Earth, I'm here" How has he revealed himself?
DebunkingAtheists
The revelation is not something you can escape. Even if you deny a special revelation, like the Bible, you are still in the world of natural revelation. "Man was created as the image of God (Gen. 1:16-27) and thus cannot escape the face of God. There is no environment where man can flee to escape the revelational presence of God (Ps. 139:8). God’s natural revelation goes out to the end of the world (Ps. 19:1-4) and all people see His glory (Ps. 97:6). Therefore, even when living in open (idolatrous) rebellion, men are in the condition of “knowing God” (Rom. 1:21)—the living and true God, not merely “a god.” Christ enlightens every man (John 1:9), and so Calvin declares: For we know that men have this unique quality above the other animals, that they are endowed with reason and intelligence and that they bear the distinction between right and wrong engraved in their conscience. Thus there is no man to whom some awareness of the eternal light does not penetrate...the common light of nature, a far lowlier thing than faith (Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. T.H.L. Parker; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans 1959)." ~Bahnsen, Greg; Booth, Robert (2011-03-03). Always Ready: Directions for Defending the Faith (Kindle Locations 602-609). Covenant Media Press. Kindle Edition. In other words, you know He exists and by crying "where is the evidence" is denying your own existence. Its absurd to reason with someone that is actually denying their own existence, all the while, demanding evidence for God.
Viperxiii
debunk, you must understand the difference between man made things and godly things. the bible and all other writings have all been written by man. he may have said something of a higher power told him to do it but that doesn't mean it happened. next i am not an atheists nor do i fall in any other religious category because i know that there has never been a single human alive who knows the truth of what may or may not be the higher power did. lies have been happening since humans created language. man was never created, he evolved, more then enough evidence for that. because if we did get created in his image, why are we all different? jesus, is by no means have any connection to god, for like all others, he was a man, just a man. you speak of how man has intelligence that no other animal has, but they do have it, just a lesser amount of it. the only thing that keeps me from becoming and atheist is the unknown answer to the beginning of the universe. but using that question i can say that it does not need a beginning for it always existed, because you will say god created it, but when did god get created if everything has to have an beginning.
DebunkingAtheists
Vip,how are you absolutely certain your reasoning is valid? How do you know?
sogeking
Shut up...
DebunkingAtheists
Shut up? Afraid of what might be said? Oh I get it, because a move closer truth, is a move closer to God. Look, I fully understand that truth always is confrontational, there is always someone on the wrong side of truth. This is a very serious and real subject for me. If I didn't love you enough to tell you the truth, then I wouldn't. Truth hurts, I understand.
SparkySparkybooman
Debunk hahahahahahahahahahaahaha I feel real bad for people like you. Nothing wrong with being religious but people like you... its just hysterical.
David Cervantes
DebunkignAtheists... yuo are so hilarious "Vip,how are you absolutely certain your reasoning is valid? How do you know?" It is hilarious how you had no comeback. Also what makes your ideas be more valid than Viperxiii who uses his own head and reasoning than just quoting a book written by humans who claim to have spoken to god. Then the next comment you responded to Sogeking looked like you totally lost the argument and you came up with a really stupid comeback. Made me ROFL while LOL and almost LMAO.
TheTank
@Scott. it is sad how misinformed u are.
imaghostbuster
You do not have to believe in god to be a good person. Thank you very much.
DebunkingAtheists
False. Ray has an analogy: “A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, “That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!” It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man’s standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God’s standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.”
Tiki
You're the one who's wrong. The fact is that if you look at people, you'll find that atheists are no less moral than believers. Morality does not stem from religious doctrine, it exists within everyone. The standard you hold yourself to when deciding how strictly to adhere to your morals changes radically from person to person. It has nothing to do with religion. All of the atheists I know are very kind and honest, and I've met many christians who are unsympathetic and cold.
DebunkingAtheists
>>You're the one who's wrong. How do you know? How do you know your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid?
Demon1981
@DebunkAtheists Are you completely brain damaged? There are just as many people out there that believe in "GOD" that are murdering bastards, and you know what some of their reasoning is for doing so? They state they are "fulfilling gods will." If you think for one second that just because you believe in go it makes you a better person you need to get a glimpse of reality.
imaghostbuster
I do not have one religion. I think that certain beliefs in multiple religions are correct. That is my personal standing. Now you say the fact that I'm not religious automatically makes me a bad person. However, I would never kill anyone. I don't steal, rape children (or anyone for that matter) and I'm honest almost to a fault. I go to school, and go to work and always show up on time. I treat people with the utmost respect. I am kind and loving to my friends and family. I say please and thank you ALWAYS, and have better public manners than most people I know. I don't believe that anyone's rights, or life is more valuable than anyone else's. I have never even had a traffic ticket! And the only time I've ever been pulled over was when I had a headlight out. Tell me that all of those things make me a bad person. Tell me that just because I confine myself to a religion that I make bad choices, and have low moral standards. But, the thing is, is I really don't care what you have to say, or think. I am a good person, and I don't have to believe in one god or one religion for that to be true.
imaghostbuster
just because I don't* confine myself....
Tiki
I am able to discern that my reasoning is valid because, unlike you, I use a faculty known as logic. If you believe that my reasoning is invalid, than go ahead and post an actual refutation of my argument rather than brushing it off.
random1234
You don't have to be a good person to get into heaven. You have to believe in him and his death at the cross to. So it doesn't matter how good you are in the end, just if you believe or not. However it is still important to be good, as it leads to a better life on earth, and more people coming to believe.
DebunkingAtheists
Right random, it is an alien righteousness. Thank the Lord for His sacrifices for us. It should bring us all to gratefulness. To those that are not will have their will be done and the gates of Hell will be locked from the inside. That too will glorify Him.
Bjor69
Debunking: You are basically encouraging child molesters, rapers and murderers. Your god seems like a real nice guy...
DebunkingAtheists
Bjor69, God is the necessary precondition for the very concepts of “right” and “wrong.” My friend once said, The atheist feels something is morally acceptable because it is practical (beneficial to the species). No other reason. So when the atheist condemns other's actions which occurred in the past without having all the facts, he is stating it appears those actions may have been impractical, but he does not know for sure. And in the same vein, when the atheist condemns a current action as being impractical he cannot say for certain that such action will remain so in the future. That is the extent of the capability of his moral judgment. Atheists want to exercise moral judgment their beliefs do not afford them. All their beliefs afford them is temporary opinion. The sham of naturalists is that they will claim 'morality' is just a manifestation of evolution and yet then profess a moral outrage or pronounce a moral judgment as if it were not so.
Robert_mathis
Well atleast i would not be causing problems preaching about god before i die.
DebunkingAtheists
I read this over and over and still have no clue what you're saying. With all due respect, what does your comment mean?
losergurl
LOLOLOLOL yes. 100% agree. Religion is the reason there is war. Religion=problems.
DebunkingAtheists
Let's look at the cold, hard facts: Non-Religious Dictators- Lives Lost •Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000 •Mao Zedong - 37,828,000 •Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000 •Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000 •Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000 •Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000 •Pol Pot - 2,397,000 And let's not forget -American baby murders (abortion) - 54,000,000 & counting
DebunkingAtheists
Oh I get it now Robert. You would have to define "causing problems" then because God existing and suppression of such knowledge indeed causes a great deal of problems. Especially in the afterlife.
John Welch
Religion isn't a cause of war, it is an excuse. If we were to do away with all religions, we would simply find some other difference and go to war over that.
Demolition Man
@Debunking "American baby murders (abortion)" What? I suppose you're homophobic as well.
DebunkingAtheists
Homophobic? Not at all, I have many gay friends and I love gay people. I love them enough to speak the truth to them. Perfect love is a constant confronter. As far as the abortion comment: Are you absolutely certain that is NOT a human being inside the woman? If so, how are you certain without God, or being viciously circular?
T.P.N
So @Debunking i have read loads of your shit comments, could we go over all the murder, incest, homophobia, racism and more, that is written down in the "Holy" bible. Oh no did i just piss you off, that's cute.
DebunkingAtheists
I am not angry at all. But before we address that, you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said that I highlight in one of my posts, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs. You are not allowed to make moral judgments. Your belief card only allows you access to the level of mere opinion. A friend of mine named Thomas said, "The atheist feels something is morally acceptable because it is practical (beneficial to the species). No other reason. So when the atheist condemns other's actions which occurred in the past without having all the facts, he is stating it appears those actions may have been impractical, but he does not know for sure. And in the same vein, when the atheist condemns a current action as being impractical he cannot say for certain that such action will remain so in the future. That is the extent of the capability of his moral judgment. Atheists want to exercise moral judgment their beliefs do not afford them. All their beliefs afford them is temporary opinion. The sham of naturalists is that they will claim 'morality' is just a manifestation of evolution and yet then profess a moral outrage or pronounce a moral judgment as if it were not so." From my blog, "By arguing for a belief in or knowledge of morality without providing a justification for morality, atheists confuse moral epistemology (moral knowledge) with moral ontology (foundation existence of morality)." ~bit.ly/assmorals
Bjor69
Debunking: You remember that time when religious rulers had the power? It's called the Dark ages. And there were mass killings in the name of god aswell. If the numbers were lower, it's because the world wasn't as populated as it is now. Crusaders did murder and rape innocents as do modern day soldiers. And witch hunts? Dne in the name of god. I don't really care what anyone believes in, just don't try to make it sound like people who believe in god are better / nicer than the rest. Anyone can be an a-hole no matter their beliefs or non-beliefs. Also, Adolf Hitler did believe in god. Does that mean he's in heaven?
DebunkingAtheists
Bjor69, You remember that time when rulers from your religion had the power? Like Stalin, Mao, Pot, Ill, Castro, and other atheistic regimes. Your relativist fallacy is disturbing. There are people that have actually murdered people BECAUSE they believe in God, as Christians. Is it your claim that Christians are NOT persecuted? Because a quick Google search reveals they are indeed the most prosecuted. Christians are NOT perfect, we are forgiven. We are not "better", but we are certainly better off. We all worship something, even you, maybe it's humanity. Hitler certainly worshiped something. As scripture states, they all serve a master. False religions, like even Hitler's, worshiped a false god. But you know this.
Danny Lemoal
All of your statements are invalid cause there is no go in the first place so this question make no sense
DebunkingAtheists
And you beg the question? Assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God because you do not believe God exists, is question begging. BTW, I notice the choice "blue" Hmm.
T.P.N
@Debunking if everything in the bible is rule, then why dont you go fuck your mother!
DebunkingAtheists
I agree with the point that the Bible should not be taken literally. That would be silly. The Bible has OBVIOUS parables, hyperbole, and poetry but it is written as an historical narrative. In fact, I say not literally, but certainly literary!
p01arb33r
Hi my name is DebunkAtheists and I am so brainwashed and can't accept the fact that people have other opinions than my own....
DebunkingAtheists
Look, I fully understand that truth always is confrontational, there is always someone on the wrong side of truth. This is a very serious and real subject for me. If I didn't love you enough to tell you the truth, then I wouldn't. Truth hurts, I understand.
Demon1981
Until you die all you have is an opinion.
sharpavery
and yet Mr.Debunk you have yet to give any valid information of anything you have only been copying and pasting that he revealed him self to us all and you try to verify this by the fact that we as humans have reasoning when even animals have the ability to reason as we are also nothing more than advanced animals ourselves coupled with the fact that our brains have evolved much further than most animals our reasoning abilities are much higher
Demolition Man
@Debunking You speak as if you believe that you are the most intelligent and correct person in the world and everyone else is an idiot. You are the most egotistical person I have ever seen. Has it ever crossed your mind that you may, actually, be wrong? "OH NO! ME, WRONG? THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS POSSIBLE?" -DebunkingAtheists
DebunkingAtheists
It is impossible that I am wrong about certain things that has been revealed to us by God, like His existence. Romnas 1:18-23 Of course if it has not been revealed, I could be wrong. I am a fallible man, after all. If you deny God's existence then you certainly are wrong. The claim is that God has revealed Himself to EVERYONE, and that this is exposed with every truth claim, every knowledge claim, and even every rational thought you have. "The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc. This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
katnissmellark
Once debunkatheists finds out there is NO god he will be very very disapointed. There is no hell or heaven. Once we die we stay in earth. We never leave. We either look out for people or haunt them. But we never leave earth.
DebunkingAtheists
katnissmellark, How do you know you reasoning about this, or anything, is valid? Could you be wrong about what you know? If not, why not?
Bjor69
Debunking : How do you know you reasoning about this, or anything, is valid? Could you be wrong about what you know? If not, why not? And stop quoting a book that you didn't write and have no clue if the original author wasn't just writing a bed time story for his kids. Also, if god revealed himself to everyone, explain how no one had ever heard about him in most of the world before the christian invasion of europe, and later of the americas?
DebunkingAtheists
I know certain things because it has been revealed by God. I cannot be "wrong" about things that God has revealed to all mankind. Do you even concede that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them? God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God. Hell's gates will be locked from the inside. To blame God is misdirecting. You need a mirror to properly place the blame. God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sin against the God that they do know.
PvtWaffles
I'm actually surprised that the comments in this topic are so extensive (after reading through, i realized that debunked and tiki have been arguing for 3 months now). I don't actually like the way that this question is phrased, because i can see a lot of people taking the "better safe than sorry" route on the blue, and a lot of others taking the "screw you for trying to scare me into submission!" with the red. Basically, blue team appears to be the more timid of the two choices, and of course atheists will see this as an offensive move. After reading through all of the comments posted, i still hold my stance on blue, not because i'd rather be safe than sorry. I hold because i would rather go my entire life genuinely believing that there is a higher being out there who loves and cares for me, rather than i'm alone in this world that is progressively becoming more independent with each passing year. Something that also irritates me a bit about what's been said so far is that Debunked is quite obviously trying to (as his name states) Debunk Atheists. The problem with that isn't that Debunk is trying to do it, but that he's trying to do it with biblical references, which will just not work. An excellent example is actually of the 3 month long argument between Debunk and Tiki. If you actually look there, it's quite obvious that both individuals believe that they are correct, but they refuse to see the point of view of the other. Debunk continuously brings up biblical and poetic references, which Tiki continuously rebukes with a demand for non-man-made physical proof. I have to admit, i really don't like atheism because it's too close-minded. It refuses to see the possibility that there might be some sort of deity out in the universe. It's like refusing to believe there's a possibility that one day there's going to be a new invention, because it hasn't been invented yet! I'm indifferent to most religions, and agnosticism as well, because at least they tend to be more open to possibilities. However, i also must admit that i'm fairly frustrated ANY person that tries to force their beliefs on someone else just simply because they don't believe what they do. Debunk, no strong atheist is going to simply drop all that they've believed and suddenly become a son of god without some direct proof, DIRECTLY at them, which is something that you and i cannot provide. It's foolish to even think that it might happen. To reference anything that has been created, or altered by man, does not qualify as proof within theology. Whenever you reference a bible verse, you have to understand that the verse has already been transcribed and translated BY MAN a number of times, therefore questioning its credibility. Me saying "Repent" will actually give the image of a 'self-righteous christian', and people will not respond well to that...even I don't respond well to that because it gives Christians a bad name! I think if you truly want to begin debunking atheism, like your name states, you should probably start by investigating ways to allow them to see that there is always more than one path to take. Bring to light that there is a possibility that there is something more than just this mudball hurtling through space around a gigantic nuclear furnace, and go from there. There is no use in trying to teach the unwilling...people just get angry.
DebunkingAtheists
My argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, 'convincing' is out of my hands. But to those to whom the gospel message is uncomfortable, it is received quite differently. When Jesus preached in His hometown at first they were amazed at His Words, but by the end of His sermon they tried to throw Him off a cliff (Luke 4: 14-30) The truth sometimes moves people to want to throw us off cliffs, but if we withhold the truth due to the reaction we might receive, then we are not teaching like our Lord. As my blog "Debunking Atheists" says, we don't have to debunk because they are debunked the very moment they proclaim their atheistic worldviews. It’s not that atheists cannot explain why logic is valid, it is that they profess worldviews that simply do not comport with universal, abstract, invariant entities such as the laws of logic. They are doing something, which, if their worldview were true, would be impossible for them to do, and THAT is the contradiction. I do not give verses so the nonbeliever can judge God, as criminals. I give verses as truth. Denial of that truth leads to absurdity. Your argument is not with me, it is with Scripture. Also, I am in this for their, and your, salvation. I seek to see God glorified by all of us being saved. "If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for." ~C.H. Spurgeon
Lasse Hauberg
@PvtWaffles I do not agree with Christianty. I'm far too concerned about prooving things for that. But i must admit, i really like the way you think.
Rythmbot
'Knowing' should be changed to 'thinking'. As in, this person wasn't 'thinking' when they came up with this question.
DebunkingAtheists
Touché, because everyone KNOWS that God exists.
Demon1981
I don't "KNOW" that god exists that's why I'm agnostic
DebunkingAtheists
I reject the premise of your statement. It is my position that everyone already believes that God exists. God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's, or agnostic's, contempt toward God.
Nicholas Churchill
I'm strongly Agnostic-Atheist. I don't deny the possibility of a god but I lean more towards there not being one. The simple matter of fact is that no one can truly know if there is or isn't a god. The Bible, regarded differently by the many different sects of Christianity, is man made; it is what is known as a "supernaturally inspired" text. The Bible in today's society cannot be taken as fact. It is written word of mouth by the close followers of Jesus, who was seen as a prophet. If you are to take The Bible as the word of god, you are taking the word of mouth of Jesus' word of mouth as the word of god. I'd liken it to hear-say in the legal system. "Paul said that Jesus said that God said that blahblahblah is bad." In my eyes, the only way that said god exists is in the heart of men. The only reason that he has power over people is because people say he does, not because he is real. It's a kind of copycat behavior without any original to copy.
DebunkingAtheists
//The simple matter of fact is that no one can truly know if there is or isn't a god. // Are you absolutely certain about that? If so, HOW are you absolutely certain in that atheistic worldview? How do you KNOW you reasoning about this, or anything, is valid? Could you even be wrong about everything you claim to know?
TheTank
I really don't like this kind of logic. just bcuz the bible was "man made" it doesn't mean we cant trust it. we might as well say all things we believe that happened before proper documenting was most likely a lie. obviously now a day there is better documenting but back then all we had was the things passed down that was on paper. the bible is real and I believe it is 100% true.
Stolkmen
It makes sense. i would rather be horribly surprised that there is a god rather than have my beliefs crushed before me
DebunkingAtheists
The thing is that you are unable to UNDERSTAND or know the truth UNTIL you repent. Repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after: 2 Timothy 2:24-26
Brian
“I decided as long as I was going to hell, I might as well do it thoroughly.” Edward:87, Book of Twilight
Tiki
So long as God isn't an asshole, there shouldn't be a problem.
DebunkingAtheists
^^look up^^ :7)
nottie
Agreed. As long as I live a basically good life, it shouldn't matter if I believe or not. And if faith matters more than morals, I don't want a part of that heaven, anyway.
DebunkingAtheists
Is that a strawman- FTW? Ray has an analogy: “A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, “That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!” It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man’s standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God’s standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.”
nottie
I understand what you are trying to get at, but that analogy proves nothing. I do not care about holding myself to 'God's standard'. I care about doing good deeds, being helpful to others, being a good friend and family-member. If that is not enough, so be it. I am satisfied with my morals. It is arrogant to push your standards - whatever your standards are drawn from - on others. Focus on being the best you can be. Judgement is not your right.
DebunkingAtheists
You're "pushing your standards" on people when you say stealing or rape is wrong, silly. The only problem is you cannot account for that moral law, or standard, in your atheistic worldview.
TheTank
if god was an asshole, u wouldnd be alive.
MichaelsProp
I can't "know" there is a God if there doesn't turn out to be one.
DebunkingAtheists
Agree. God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God.
Viperxiii
stop repeating your same arguments.
DebunkingAtheists
OK. Vip, I will stop when you finally answer the question. Now, how do you know your reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know? If not, why not?
Griffin
OK Pascal.
DebunkingAtheists
Is God a probable God or a certain God? A probable “god” is not God–a probable ‘god’ does not exist. When we defend a probable God, we are lying about who God is. God does not give us odds, He gives us assurance. It is the Christian position that God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God.
Griffin
You just keep saying that like you have any reason to believe that God exists. You don't. You just want to believe that your version of God is real. Probable, certain, it doesn't make a lick of difference.
Viperxiii
debunk, after reading to this point ive learned that speaking to you is completely wasting my time, for you are a person who has turned your back on your own self and all knowledge available. so i doubt ill reply to anything you reply to me with, good day sir.
DebunkingAtheists
Are you sure Viper? You seem to be commenting on every single threads here. It almost appears that you have an axe to grind. You could stop by my blog "Debunking Atheists" to discuss things further in a better format.
Tiki
For all you know, Islam is the correct religion and you'll also be spending time in hell. The argument you're using is called Pascal's Wager, which is essentially an appeal to cowardice. It has nothing to do with truth, it just tries to scare people into believing. Not to mention that it is inherently flawed. There are an infinite number of possibilities as to what happens when you die.
DebunkingAtheists
Qu'ran: [In Surah 19, Maryam, verse 12, Yahya, who lived at the time of Jesus was told "to take hold of the Book, (the Torah)." Surah 3, Ali'Imran, verse 48 tells us that Jesus was also taught in the Torah. Numerous verses, such as Surah 34, Saba, verse 31, Surah 35, Fatir, verse 31, attest to the truth that the Torah was uncorrupted in the time of Muhammad (pbuh) in the sixth century A.D.] So yes, the Qu'ran points to the truth of the Bible, rightly, but that does not mean the Qu'ran itself is truth. That being said, how do you KNOW your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid?
Tiki
You completely ignored my argument. Any possible religion could be true, not to mention any religion which has yet to be created. It's simple probability.
DebunkingAtheists
I am sure you would concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them. Right? It is the Christian position that God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God.
Tiki
Except for the fact that without using circular logic, there is no way to prove that your religion is correct.
Tiki
I could claim that the flying spaghetti monster mandated to me that Pastafarianism is the one true religion, and the FSM is omniscient, therefore I am correct.
DebunkingAtheists
Congratulations, you've just given up your atheism to defend your atheism, and (2) you've provided us no predictive prophecy grounded in historical events, etc., (3) and thus given us no good reason to believe in your god over a uniplural Flying Spaghetti monster.
DebunkingAtheists
Do your use your reasoning when you reason about the past 'success' of your reasoning? Obviously you do, which makes your position viciously circular. Also, assuming that you have nothing else to go on, begs the question AND commits the fallacy of argument from ignorance. Again, I am not saying that atheists do not reason, all I am saying is that they have no basis for assuming that their reasoning is valid, yet they make that assumption. Without presupposing God, the position of the atheist is reduced to absurdity.
Griffin
Atheists are disagreeing with you on the point that "God has revealed himself to all mankind." You don't know that, you THINK that. You may really, really think it, but you can't say you know it.
Tiki
My logic isn't circular at all. I've clearly presented my argument, something you fail to do. How can you prove that your religion is true? You have yet to provide any evidence.You claim I'm wrong, but fail to back it up with any actual logic or argument.
DebunkingAtheists
The claim is that God has revealed Himself to EVERYONE, and that this is exposed with every truth claim, every knowledge claim, and even every rational thought you have. Now, assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God because you do not believe God exists, is question begging. Also, assuming that your reasoning is not evidence for God, is question begging though, as you start with the presupposition that God does not exist in order to conclude that your ability to reason is not evidence of God.
Demon1981
All you are doing is restating what you have previously, you have yet to provide any "proof" for your religion. Just admit it you dont know, you are just hoping that you are right. You have no clue what really is, was, or will be.
Tiki
You claimed numerous times that God has revealed himself to everyone, yet you have provided no evidence supporting that notion. This is the reason why atheists reject the concept of a God: the burden of proof is on you, and you have consistently failed to meet that burden. Until you do provide proof of the existence of your God, your argument stems from an unsupported assumption.
Viperxiii
debunk, also, mans default is to not believe and from there he spreads out to what he believes. there is no reason from when we are born to believe in anything, only through human contact do we learn of religions.
DebunkingAtheists
Timi, as I have already stated but you deny, God has indeed revealed Himself to us through natural and special revelations, Natural (nature, math, space, planets, stars, galaxies, etc.) and Special revelations (Jesus, His resurrection, Scriptures, miracles, etc.)
DebunkingAtheists
Sorry autocorrect changed Tiki to Timi.
Tiki
So long as God isn't an asshole, there shouldn't be a problem.
DebunkingAtheists
Well its impossible for God to be that. Nothing is more loving then since you will not have His will be done, he grants your will to be done. That will to be separated from God for eternity. How great is that, God grants your demand when you have denied Him your entire life.
random1234
Would you call your parents a** holes because they discipline you?
Franklin Chen
No offense to religious people, but if there is a god he would almost certainly be an ass because he gives us war, pain, etc. And he only keeps people who worship him (or so I've hard)
DebunkingAtheists
Franklin, Before we address that you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs.
SqueekyClean
Apparently God is meant to love everyone, therefore regardless of the way you've lived your life, in theory you'd still be accepted.
DebunkingAtheists
False. How do you know your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid? You cannot believe that God loves unrepentant sinners. Romans 9:13, Proverbs 14:17 The question is should we hate what God hates? Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Lev. 20:23, Prov. 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15
Anonymous
Why in THE FUCK would you want to die and find out there is one? You would go straight to hell and suffer. If you find out there isn't one, then you wouldn't even suffer.
losergurl
Why the f*ck would you want to deceive yourself all you life and die to realize you missed out on so much because you were too busy playing pretend?
Anonymous
@losergurl Think about it this way: approximately 70-80 years of "playing pretend" or "deceiving yourself" if you want to call it that, or an eternity of burning and suffering in Hell? In Heaven, it wouldn't really matter because you would get all of the things you wanted in life there. You don't have to dedicate your life to God or not do certain things to get to heaven as much as people make it out to be.
DarklordTheo
Without going into religion, I believe that it is each person's duty to better the lives of those around them in this life. I happen to be agnostic, yet try to help those in need without caring about any eternal reward or punishment for my actions. If you can make the world a better place without faith, then would a just God sentence you to eternal agony for refusing to venerate Him?
DebunkingAtheists
Ray has an analogy: "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day." You believe you're doing good. Are you really?
DarklordTheo
Anything can appear corrupted in the correct frame of reference. One who gives money to a poor man does a good act, yet if the poor man is killed because he is holding money, was it really a good act? Comparisons are also flawed. For example, nobody in your life is likely to be as kind or good as one of the Saints of yore. Does that make you any less of a good person? No.
DebunkingAtheists
Valid points. So now you have to realize WHO decides if it was a good act or not. Then you will understand better. Ray had a good analogy for you that simply said, "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day."
kingshav
To know something is the same as stating a fact. To know that there is no god means that there is in fact no god. Of course, you cannot know something that cannot be proven. The word you should have used in the first option is 'believe,' since you cannot prove there is a god. Obviously I cannot prove that there is no god, but I also cannot prove that there is no unicorns. To say that something is true just because you can't prove it wrong just means you have no idea how the scientific process works. To deny science as many creationists do is to deny all that we know and can firmly hold true as humans. More on topic of the question; don't you think god can see to your soul and know exactly where your heart lies? To believe in god just to get out of hell is not true love, which is what we are supposed to have with god. If fear of hell is all that's keeping someone Christian, you're going right to hell since you're only believing for your own benefit. But then again, why else would we believe? Because god first loved us. That's cool. Because god loved us so much he sacrificed his own son (who is also him) to save us from the evil he created (at least allowed). If god truly is all powerful, he should not have to sacrifice himself or his son. If god truly loves us he would not have allowed evil to exist at all. And there is nothing stopping him from ending all evil. Well god wants you to love him because you love him, not because you have to. Yet god knows we are fallible and can be tempted and will sin (he knows all, correct)? It seems that god is either not all powerful, not all knowing, or not all love. He has exhibited traits that show us he is incapable of all three. If you'd like to discuss this further, feel free to contact me on twitter. @uncledeep
DebunkingAtheists
The only possible way that we can know anything for certain is by Divine revelation from One who knows everything. It is the Christian position that God has revealed some things to us so that we can be certain of them. I am sure you would concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them. Also, I do not deny Science, I deny naturalism. No, naturalism didn't produce this laptop. Science and God did. Naturalism artificially rules out a kind of cause before it has a chance to speak by the evidence. The cause of intelligence for one. Do you agree there are real dangers of scientists taking philosophical positions such as this? Naturalism has not been scientifically evidenced, simply its taken as a philosophical paradigm. Nevertheless, Kingshav. How do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid? @debunkAtheists
patdlvr
okay so if gods supposed to be all forgiving then even if your horribly wrong he'll accept you with open arms right?
DebunkingAtheists
No He does not forgive all. You need to approach God with a broken and contrite heart. " The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." ~ Psalm 51:17 You see, you are unable to UNDERSTAND or know the truth UNTIL you repent. Repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after: 2 Timothy 2:24-26
Viperxiii
there you go citing man made words again, you will never change anybodies mind citing these things, use your own knowledge, not someone elses.
sharpavery
if he did exist and threw me into eternal suffering just because i refuse to serve him and be under him that would make him nothing more than a dick and an anarchist I am not the best person but I believe in doing what is right but i will not worship some diety just so that if he even does exist that i will get his approval
Darael
A god that judged based on pure faith, rather than on one's actions in life, would not be worthy of worship. A god that judged based on actions in life, rather than faith, would be very happy with people that took the red option and lived well.
DebunkingAtheists
OK Darael, take the good test then. Google: good test, to see how you have done. Your "good" is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) I just said this but worth repeating here. Ray has an analogy, Ray has an analogy: "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day."
overtherainbow
I think the author meant that you're beliefs were so strong you felt that you knew there wasn't a god. And I think there would be bigger disappointment in finding out you had lived your whole life chaste until marriage, never commited a terrible sin, and been pretty uptight to find out... HOLY SHIT ALL THIS WAS FOR NOTHING? Rather than find heaven and such. Would be more fun.
DebunkingAtheists
Well that is the Atheistic worldview. Arbitrary, relativistic morality. Murdering babies, raping babies, it does not matter. In the end its just darkness and end. Fortunately this is a righteous universe and everyone accounts for their evil.
Viperxiii
you call their view arbitrary, but yours is just as arbitrary.
DebunkingAtheists
Viperxii, how do you know that your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid? Part two would be, Is it viciously circular to reason your reasoning is valid? If not, why not?
Viperxiii
that's going in to psychology, are my thoughts real? do they exist in some other ethereal reality? i don't believe in the dualist perspective on this, our thoughts are created through nerves in our brain. your asking a question that is unanswerable because by asking whether i can reason causes me to have to reason, so no matter what i say you will be like "ah ha, i gotcha to think" ive seen you use this argument further down this comments section. but then again, if i cant prove my reasoning, how can you prove yours? because faith is caused by reasoning that "we cant exist without a creator" or what ever else causes you to believe in the non existent. further, if my reasoning is unable to be valid at all, whats the point of thinking? maybe thats why its so difficult to convince religious people to think.
DebunkingAtheists
how can you prove my reasoning? Simple, Same way I can be certain of anything REVELATION. How am I certain that the revelation is valid? Because God has revealed it such that WE can be certain of it. The only possible way that we can know anything for certain is by Divine revelation from One who knows everything. It is the Christian position that God has revealed some things to us so that we can be certain of them. Now, your turn. How is it possible for you to know anything for certain?
DebunkingAtheists
correction: How can I prove my reasoning? ...
Viperxiii
you know you didn't answer anything right? you just said i know it because i said so and god and religious blabber. how has he revealed this to you? like i said, as far as i can see, nothing that happens on this world is an act of god. everything we know is from experiences after our birth, no knowledge is passed through genes or divine acts. ---you are asking me to reason my thoughts which come from reasoning without reasoning. and im asking you to reason your thoughts, which come from........ probably your parents or a traumatic event in your life to make you turn towards religion, with reasoning... we are at an impasse. ---so instead let me ask you something, are you unable to let the dead lie? do you fear that your life will end, and that when it ends you will not exist? do u feel the necessity to cling to something, anything to bring your some sort of relief to these thoughts/anxiety you would feel by knowing you have a limited life span, and that everyone around you who dies, is dead? did something happen in your life, near death experience or death of a loved one, or something related?
DebunkingAtheists
When you have a knowledge claim like, "no knowledge is passed through genes or divine acts." I want to know HOW do you know this? Are you absolutely certain of that? If so, HOW? Plus, you are not justifying your ability to reason, you are telling us where you learned things. For the sake of this argument, I could not care less where you learned anything. I want to know how you know that your reasoning about ANYTHING is valid? Could you, for instance, be wrong about EVERYTHING that you know?
sharpavery
couldn't you also be wrong about everything that you think you know Mr.Debunk
DebunkingAtheists
No, I cannot be wrong about God's existence. I don't think this, I know it for certain, as it is impossible to know anything absent certainty. It's the same way I can be certain of anything R E V E L A T I O N. How am I certain that the revelation is valid? Because God has revealed it such that WE can be certain of it.
daydreaming
All I see here is circle logic.
DebunkingAtheists
Problem is Daydreaming, you use your reasoning to test your reasoning which is viciously circular. With that line of thought, no one's reasoning could be invalid. You bring up fallacies as if you thought logic was absolute. I would ask you to be more consistant with your atheistic worldview, but rather you repent of it.
daydreaming
There are literally thousands of Deities in all religions combined. Just because you choose to believe in one religion does not mean another religion isn't correct. I'm not saying that your God doesn't exist. I'm just saying I choose to believe what I want to believe. Having morals are not just exclusive to being christian. There is no foul in believing in a higher power. I just don't go on throwing my own beliefs on to other people.
DebunkingAtheists
We accept the Christian faith as the grounds of all logic, because we accept the notion that scripture teaches there is only one God, he's the creator of all things and thus he created logic. For the unbeliever, he/she must first believe in Christ and repent before they can ever come to any conclusions at all about anything at all. If they have no basis in which to place their faith in logic or exists then they've yet to understand that logic or matter exists because their faith is based in logic and reason itself, yet you can't use either to explain where either originated from (enter circular reasoning). They must assume and accept that both logic and reason originated from a single omnipotent source because without that source, there is no logic or reason, man didn't create logic or reason, we only use them as the tools that were provided to us by God. If we say there is no God, then we put the cart before the horse and look pretty stupid... As for which God (which I believe is where this argument gets hung up) that falls to the legitimacy of the scriptures and the foundation of where the God you serve comes from. I lean on the God of the Bible, not only because he revealed himself to me and I chose to accept and believe on his son, and because the endless truth IN scriptures let alone the countless prophecies that God's word has spoken that have come true and are still coming true. The God of Israel and the Bible is real and the only true God, not because I say so, but because He does.
daydreaming
From a Christian point of view you would be correct. Personally I don't believe in Christianity. Call me an unbeliever, but I will believe what I want. People have different beliefs, accept it. You believing in God is all the proof you need for your arguments, and I understand that. You are set on your own beliefs which is good for you but this is also a reason why it is illogical to continue this.
DebunkingAtheists
Illogical? With a standard of logic which does not comport with your worldview.
Sophie
Honestly, DebunkingAtheists, you're really hypocritical. You say people should prove HOW they know that we don't just inherit knowledge from faith, yet when asked for you to prove how you know this 'god' of your's gives you knowledge, you never give a straight answer. Saying you know it because 'god revealed himself' isn't proving anything. You want to know how I got knowledge that god doesn't exist? I went to school, and I focused in science. You're hilarious.
DebunkingAtheists
Sophie, Are you absolutely certain that I am hypocritical? How is "hypocritical" WRONG from an atheistic worldview? How do you get an OUGHT from an IS? Also, I know my reasoning is valid from the revelation (natural, special, and Scripture) from God. Now, how do you know your reasoning is valid about this, or anything, without God or being viciously circular?
lijiah
You, sir or madam, are a hypocritical, self-righteous, bible-thumping asshole. You use the bible as "proof" to support your claims and quote verses to anyone who disagrees. You are aware that god didn't say to Moses "Here, take this book and pass it around." The bible was written by men. Men are not infallible. Therefore, the bible is not infallible. Unless you have some actual physical proof of your lord, aside from a bunch of two thousand year old books written by mankind, kindly shut the hell up. And have a pleasant day.
DebunkingAtheists
//Therefore, the bible is not infallible. // Besides that being a hasty generalization fallacy, it is quite hypocritical of you to use computers and science, all the while claiming men cannot get it right because men are "fallible" Second, How do you know your reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong? If not, why not? Would you concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them? //Unless you have some actual physical proof of your lord, aside from a bunch of two thousand year old books written by mankind, kindly shut the hell up. // Indeed, but first, in order to prove something to you, I will need to know what qualifies as proof according to your position. Please answer the following questions: 1. Does the thing proven have to be absolutely true? 2. Does the thing proven have to be known for certain to be absolutely true? 3. Does the thing proven have to follow absolute laws of logic? Does my proof have to comport with absolute laws of logic according to what YOU believe? IF so, how do you account for those laws according to YOUR worldview? Also, ‘evidence’ also presupposes ‘logic, knowledge, and truth” care to tell me how you account for them according to YOUR worldview? It is through God's natural and special revelations that we all know Him for certain. Even you. You deny this?
Slayer of Potatoes
Fun fact: the Christian god is logically impossible, in the same sense that a square circle is logically impossible. The Christian god is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely just, infinitely merciful, and grants people free will. Omnipotence is self-contradictory. Could an omnipotent being create a task it was unable to fulfil? If not, then that is something it can't do. Not omnipotent. If so, then there is a possible task it can't fulfil. Not omnipotent. Thus, omnipotence is impossible. Omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. Free will states that beings can choose their actions, and that there are an infinite number of possible outcomes. The presence of an omniscient being would mean that there was only one possible outcome, and that beings only have, at most, the illusion of free will. Can't have it both ways. Omniscience also flies in the face of omnipotence. Could an omnipotent, omniscient being change what it knows is going to happen? If so, it did not know the future, and is not omniscient. If not, it is not omnipotent. Mercy is withholding justice for compassionate reasons. Infinite mercy is infinite injustice and vice versa. So, to sum up, the Christian god could not possibly exist. It is worth noting that this is not the case for things like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Thor, Odin, Zeus, Apollo, Amun-Ra, Quezacotl, fairies, unicorns, wizards, dragons, Russell's Teapot, ghosts, goblins, zombies, leprechauns, and so on. All of those things could theoretically exist, but not the Christian god. I could go into detail about why the Christian god is also the most evil thing imaginable, but I feel like this post is long enough as it is. Have a nice day, everyone!
DebunkingAtheists
Are your absolutely certain your reasoning is valid for this, or anything? If so, how are you certain? How do you know your reasoning is valid, without God or being viciously circular? We do not have free will, but free choices. I cannot will wings and fly like a bird. You certainly have choices in life. Yes, your choices are part of God's plan. God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sin against the God that they do know. Hell's gates will be locked from the inside, as CS Lewis said. Besides, you and I seem to be in disagreement with regards to the meaning of ‘omnipotent’. Omnipotence simply means ‘all powerful’ and does not include the ability to do the logically impossible, as logic is a reflection of the very absolute character and nature of God. God cannot contradict His own character, as then he would be able to be both ‘God’ and ‘not God’ at the same time and in the same way, which means He could also be both omnipotent and not omnipotent as well (which is absurd, of course). It’s also important to note that the ability to contradict oneself is not a ‘power’, but a weakness and is necessarily precluded from the scope of omnipotence by definition. Akso for omnibenevolence, ‘good’ is that which comports with the absolute character and nature of God. Since God is the very standard of ‘good’, He cannot do evil, as this would require Him to contradict His character, which, again, is not possible. I will conclude with a last question, is it viciously circular to employ your senses and reasoning to validate your senses and reasoning?
Slayer of Potatoes
I am as certain about this as I am about anything in life. Absolute certainty is a myth. For all I know, I'm just a brain in a jar who has been hallucinating for my entire life, or maybe I'm stuck in a computer program. The same can be said of you. Believing in a god doesn't magically get you around that. You imply that your belief makes you absolutely certain you are right. How? You base your beliefs on what you read in a Bronze Age book, rather than on logic and reason. Logic and reason are the best methods of determining what is true simply because they work. If you want to convince me of something, you're going to need some form of evidence. The burden of proof is on you since you're the one making the positive claim (i.e. that the Christian god exists). Free will is the same as free choice. Free will does not mean magical powers. "Your choices are part of God's plan" - That simply doesn't make sense. Either a divine plan forces you to make those choices (no free will), or you can deviate from that plan (plan is alterable, future uncertain, therefore omniscience is impossible). "sin against the god that they do know" - Well, that makes me immune, seeing as there is no god that I know. If you mean to say that everyone knows deep down that there is a god, that's simply absurd. I could throw it back at you and say that everyone knows deep down that there isn't. There's no way to prove or disprove either of those statements, so it's pointless to use them in an argument. Omnipotence = all powerful = ability to do literally anything. 'Anything' includes things which are logically impossible, or contradicting oneself. Actually, I'm glad you brought up self-contradiction, because the Biblical god does that quite a lot. Micah 7:18 - god's anger does not last forever. Jeremiah 17:4 - god's anger lasts forever. Genesis 22:1 - god tests Abraham. James 1:13 - god tests nobody. Isaiah 40:28 - god does not tire. Isaiah 1:14, Isaiah 43:24 - god grows tired. I could give you more examples, but I think you get the point. As for why the Christian god is evil, he advocates slavery (including instructions on how to beat your slave), commits genocide, advocates genocide, set up the death penalty for crimes such as divorce, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, planting two different crops side by side in the same field, having a couple of people in a town worship another god (that one is actually punished by killing everyone in the town, including livestock, and burning the town to the ground so that nobody could ever live there again), and wearing a garment made from two different fabrics. I'm sure I've missed a few there. He also doesn't seem to have that much of a problem with rape, unless you're the victim. According to the Bible, if a man rapes a woman who is not engaged to be married, he must pay 50 pieces of silver to the woman's father, then marry the victim. The victim has no say in this. If the victim was married or engaged, she is to be put to death. Both of us are morally superior to anyone who would come up with even one of those rules. But even if we ignore all of that, there is still the greatest evil imaginable to cover, and that is sending people to hell. Infinite punishment for finite crime is infinitely evil. Nobody deserves to be tortured forever. The god of the Bible is the most evil being that has ever been imagined, or ever could be imagined. As for your last question, at no point did I try to validate my senses and reasoning. Not sure where you got that. I used them, yes. What else could I have used? It is impossible to know for sure if my/your senses and reasoning are correct. In order to make any progress, we are forced to assume that they are correct at least some of the time. Only once you make that one assumption can you begin to figure out what is true and what isn't. Anyway, I'm going to leave you with a question. Why do you believe in the Christian god, or in what the Bible says?
DebunkingAtheists
Are you absolutely certain that "Absolute certainty is a myth"? If so, HOW are you certain? You said "The same can be said of you", did you use your reasoning to make this determination? How do you know this? I cannot tell you how many times supposed learned people have set to me: “Okay, I can’t know anything, but neither can you.” Problem is, if they can’t know anything, then they cannot know what I can or cannot know, yet the very first thing out of their mouths after denying knowledge, is a knowledge claim. // How am I certain? Same way I can be certain of anything REVELATION. How am I certain that the revelation is valid? Because God has revealed it such that WE can be certain of it. Since all you have is opinion, could not CERTAINLY deny it. // You said, "Logic and reason are the best methods of determining what is true" But how do you KNOW this? Could you be wrong? On what bases are you assuming that the words you're speaking to me are going to be the same 5 seconds from now even? // You asked for "evidence" but, erm, ‘evidence’ also presupposes ‘logic, knowledge, and truth” care to tell me how you account for them according to YOUR worldview? // You claim "The burden of proof" is on me, but proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. Defined as "Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement." Proof has to be true in order for it to counts as proof. True things are 100% true and absolutely true. How do you account for ANY absolutes in your worldview? How can you know ANYTHING to be absolutely true? Also, God revealed that everyone knows He exists, He created the world. He revealed that His existence is necessary for knowledge, ethics, aesthetics, etc. So you're making an implicitly positive claim by saying you do not believe He exists, and therefore you own a burden of proof. // You believe Omnipotence means the ability of "contradicting oneself". But, you ignored what I pointed out that "the ability to contradict oneself is not a ‘power’, but a weakness and is necessarily precluded from the scope of omnipotence by definition." I can see why you did though, as it flies into the face of your dogma here. // I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold it as authoritative. We have rescuing devices and explanations for all of that as Christians. Do you wish to join us on a Bible study? God is the necessary starting point of ALL reason, NOT merely the conclusion. Otherwise, we would be left trying to prove what Scripture says Atheists already know, and prove it on THEIR terms. In essence, putting the Lord of Glory on trial. That would be unBiblical. // You believe God is "evil" but before we address that you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs.// You have NOT addressed my questions as I am doing here. That is unfair. The two you have not answered is How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular? AND is it viciously circular to employ your senses and reasoning to validate your senses and reasoning? // As for your question, I lean on the God of the Bible, not only because he revealed himself to me and I chose to accept and believe on His Son, and because the endless truth IN scriptures let alone the countless prophecies that God's word has spoken that have come true and are still coming true. Besides, I try to invite God's wrath on me daily yet He returns that resistance with Love and Grace. The God of Israel and the Bible is real and the only true God, not because I say so, but because He does. Your turn, answer my questions please.
Slayer of Potatoes
"Are you absolutely certain that "Absolute certainty is a myth"?" That question is so damn stupid, I am now convinced you are a troll. As such, I will stop responding to you.
DebunkingAtheists
I am EXPOSING your absurd worldview silly. You fail to see that the very making of an assertion implies that it is true, and not relatively true. For instance ... "all men are mortal" implies that every man, in every case, is mortal. "God exists" implies that God exists, not just "for me". That's the nature of making unqualified assertions such as "nothing is absolute"; they imply that what is being stated is absolutely true. Again, how do you know your reasoning is valid, without God or being viciously circular?
Jeremy
I'd rather go to hell than deal with Christians every day anyway.
Matthew Marks
This makes no sense, it says live KNOWING there is or isn't a god, yet after that it says to find out there is or isn't one...That is contradictory.
DebunkingAtheists
Yup, this is true. The first one cannot be possibly true. A scenario that will never come. The second one is merely a self delusion that many believe with intensity but zero substance.
DebunkingAtheists
I still find it interesting which one is chosen even if contradictory. Says plenty about their, your, worldview.
DebunkingAtheists
Are not all of these false dilemma fallacies anyways? Complain about that. :7)
Jordan
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” - Marcus Aurelius
DebunkingAtheists
How do you know your (his) reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong? If not, why not?
Jordan
My intuition tells me his statement is a very true one. Could it be wrong? Well of course there's a possibility it could be wrong. But you have to realize the original question was stupid in the way that its reversible... You can never "know" anything for certain...This all could just be a dream..There's a possibility we're in the matrix right now.But just because anything is possible doesn't prove the existence of fairies. So my dear man(or woman) I ask you, How do you know your reasoning is valid? (Spoiler: You have to admit, you really don't...)
DebunkingAtheists
Jordan, //"You can never "know" anything for certain..."// Are you absolutely certain there is no absolute certainty? Did you use your reasoning to make this determination? I cannot tell you how many times supposed learned people have said to me: “Okay, I can’t know anything, but neither can you.” Problem is, if they can’t know anything, then they cannot know what I can or cannot know, yet the very first thing out of their mouths after denying knowledge, is a knowledge claim. I know for certain God exists the same way I can be certain of anything, revelation. How am I certain that the revelation is valid? Because God has revealed it such that WE can be certain of it. God has revealed Himself to EVERYONE, and that this is exposed with every truth claim, every knowledge claim, and even every rational thought you have.
Jordan
Lets get one thing straight. When I'm using the word "know" casually, I'm using it to mean "a vast amount of evidence is pointing to its legitimacy". The fact that you completely misunderstand that after debating all these atheist you speak of, really says something either about your intelligence, or your intellectual honesty. In both cases you look bad. Furthermore, supposed revelation is not a legitimate form of evidence mainly for the reason that it's completely subjective and consistently inconsistent. If it was legitimate, then all these people who got "saved" should be happy, intelligent, and peaceful (They would have a god on their side). With their define revelation they would be making valid claims.But as it happen, we see the exact opposite of that in religion. Example: Martin Luther predicting the world would end by 1846 for sure....150+ years after this supposed deadline ...This is the man who brought about the protestant reformation. The presuppositional argument fails on every level and I suggest you start listening to someone other than Kent Hovind.Your lucky you even got a reply from me...
DebunkingAtheists
Do you even concede that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them? Also throwing baby out with the bathwater. You speak of the "Luther prediction" without taking into account of what was revealed to us (Mark 13:32) Yes fallible man gets things wrong. But we cannot be wrong about what HAS been revealed, because it is not because we say it, but because God has. "The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc. This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
Jordan
"The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc." ......Perhaps the stupidest statement I have ever seen in my life. That claim is completely evidence free and as such can not be presented in the argument. Watching your other interlocutions on this page. I'm guessing your going to respond with a "Are you completely and absolutely certain that my claim is evidence free?" To that I will simply direct you here; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phi...n_of_proof (Who has the burden of proof) ....Also let me clarify that I am not making the claim that define revelation can not possible be legitimate...only that it most likely isn't, due to the absence of evidence for it (Just like the absence of evidence for fairies.You would agree fairies probable don't exist wouldn't you? Same reasoning).. Its on YOU to present the evidence of its legitimacy in order to site it as proof of a deity. ...And since your squirming like a cornered little snake I'm guessing you don't have it...Good night sir
DebunkingAtheists
Squirming? In the field we call that "projecting". Now, you have NOT answered the second part of that question. I said, "This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?" So don't squirm, and run away, before NOT answering that part of the question. As far as burden of proof my proof is too much to explain here, but my buddy Sye over at "ProofthatGodexists.ORG" helps you with that. Also, it is YOU who holds a burden of proof for the implicitly positive claim that God DID NOT reveal Himself to all of mankind. Choosing Hats has a post called "The Atheist's Burden of Proof" that you need to google to get that fleshed out. BUT, the question still stands, how do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
Jordan
Define "viciously circular" and how I am displaying those characteristics without God.Also while your at it define "God".(If you do one thing, answer me on these points)...... I'm not dodging the question, your just posing a invalid one. If don't answer, you automatically label me as unreasonable.....Its the very height of stupidity and I'm sorry you guys have been reduced to such a low.....If you still don't see the error in your position let me replace the word "God" with "penis"....."Without Penis you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc....I know this because Penis has revealed it to ALL people.even though if this were true there wouldn't be any atheist......Maybe that was slightly juvenile of me but, it points out a very big problem. without knowing what a "God" is, you can't assert him into an argument and simply define him as magic - its completely evidence free and has yet to be proved.
DebunkingAtheists
It is simple, you reason your reasoning is valid, and THAT makes you "viciously circular". It is defined as a conclusions that restates the premise, or the conclusion is a restatement (in one form or another) of one of its premises. "The sky is blue, because the sky is blue" is a fine example of that. Scripture reveals God is a spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. So, once again, How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular? Also, keep in mind that assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God because you do not believe God exists, is question begging. I don't expect you to like what I write, but assuming that your reasoning is not evidence for God, is question begging also, as you start with the presupposition that God does not exist in order to conclude that your ability to reason is not evidence of God. The claim is that God has revealed Himself to EVERYONE, and that this is exposed with every truth claim, every knowledge claim, and even every rational thought you have. As Sye put it, "Not only did Christ's death and resurrection save souls for eternity, it saves our reasoning now. Again, I beg you to repent and turn from rejecting the God you know exists, and accept the free gift of Jesus Christ's payment for your sins, so that you might be saved from Hell, spend an eternity with God, AND have a firm foundation for your reasoning NOW."
Jordan
Reason or "reasoning" is associated with thinking and cognition. This is directly linked to the activity of the brain. With that in mind, how do you escape from this vicious circle you speak of? Is your brain not active when you read your bible? The only way to escape from this vicious cycle of reason is for your brain activity to seize. I appreciate your sincerity when offering me your divine truth, but I've already been there and done that.....I can HONESTLY say that I have not detected the slightest bit of define revealing in this world. When I look up at the stars, I think to myself how bizarre it is that people think there's a God up there watching over us......Since your basing your entire argument on the idea that everyone knows God exist, I can honestly say this directly conflicts with the fact that I do not "know" any god exist...with this in mind, we probably don't have anything further to talk about........ Thank you and goodnight.
DebunkingAtheists
Did you use your reasoning to conclude that "This is directly linked to the activity of the brain"? If so, how do you KNOW it is valid without being viciously circular? We avoid that viciously circular reasoning because of the natural and special revelation from God. THAT is how we know He exists, it was revealed. Greg Bahnsen writes: ”In the Christian worldview, however, the Christian is not engaged in viciously circular argument, a circular argument on the same plane. We appeal above and beyond the temporal realm. God’s self-revelation in nature and in Scripture informs us of the two-level universe. God is not a fact like other facts in the world. He is the Creator and Establisher of all else. His existence alone makes the universe, and reason, and human experience possible… … The “circularity” of a transcendental argument is not at all the same as the fallacious ‘circularity’ of an argument in which the conclusion is a restatement (in one form or another) of one of its premises.” ~ (Pushing the Antithesis pg.) 124. NOW, are you absolutely certain that "The only way to escape from this vicious cycle of reason is for your brain activity to seize"? IF so, HOW are you certain of this?
Nick B.
Believing in God and end up dying into peaceful nonexistence, or not believing in God and then end up going to hell...hmmm...what a hard choice...
DebunkingAtheists
There is no God? I hope you understand that claim is an implicitly positive claim. Therefore you now own a burden of proof. How do you know your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid?
losergurl
lol this is stupid
DebunkingAtheists
You mean that the Atheists rely on their reasoning to justify their reasoning in a viciously circular manner? I completely agree. :7)
losergurl
No, I'm saying that you're full of sh*t and your comments are just proving how much of an idiot you are. I'm atheist and even I know "God" said that he was all loving and accepting. Well based on that, you're the one damned to hell, not us.
DebunkingAtheists
Understand though that I am not here to coddle people, to me that is not love at all. Perfect love is a constant confronter. Matthew 22:39, Leviticus 19:17-18 tells us how to treat people so that is what I do. I am not here to strive for popularity. It takes far more love to confront to ignore the situation. As it says it Matthew, "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" But what does this truly mean? Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we coddle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope, Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell. The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD." These are harsh words sometimes. Just because it appears that I am being a jerk to them does not mean that I am one. I know I don't have to explain things to you but I just want you to know that I try to do things out of love, not hate. I also fully understand that truth always is confrontational, there is always someone on the wrong side of truth.
losergurl
I understand you have found a way to cover yourself with religion, because my gosh, being religious gives you the permission to be mean to others. And don't try to use the bible against me, I've read it. Great story book, not something to live by.
DebunkingAtheists
Are you absolutely certain of that? If so, how?
sharpavery
DAMN-IT stop answering stuff with questions we all know that your trying to prove your way is right when many of us don't care your way of writing has done nothing but annoy me all this time but i did read it and you have yet to prove anything other than (I'm right because god says so) your acting like an overly educated 6 year old. IF he does exist i'm going to live my life being the best person i can be doing what (I) BELIEVE is right but if i go to hell just be cause i don't want to worship some god even though i choose to live my life the best i can you know what than i'll become the best demon i can be
DebunkingAtheists
I agree because God does not send people to hell for something they are not certain about. Hell's gates will be locked from the inside. That, is the sad truth.
losergurl
@DebunkAtheists If your bible is so true, then why do they teach science in schools and not Christianity? EXACTLY. Becuase you're just an ignorant person who uses religion as a defense for everything. It's okay, you can dwell in your false sense of security while the rest of us go out into the world and enjoy our lives.
DebunkingAtheists
I forgot to ask, is it viciously circular to employ your senses and reasoning to validate your senses and reasoning? I also wanted to point out that to those to whom the gospel message is uncomfortable, it is received like you now. When Jesus preached in His hometown at first they were amazed at His Words, but by the end of His sermon they tried to throw Him off a cliff (Luke 4: 14-30) The truth sometimes moves people to want to throw us off cliffs, but if we withhold the truth due to the reaction we might receive, then we are not teaching like our Lord.
kokid913
I would rather not know and have allah forgive me
DebunkingAtheists
You know the truth, but you deny it. Go to youtube and watch: /watch?v=YNGqrzkFp_4
DebunkingAtheists
OOPS that was the wrong video. THIS was the response to that one I provided, and again THIS is one I wanted you to watch: /watch?v=0X9c_LNwqtU&
andrewp96
There is a Heaven and a Hell! If you chose to follow God you will go to heaven and if you dpnt you will spend forever in HELL!!!!
DebunkingAtheists
[link removed]
sparta_the_cat
If there was a heaven why would people who don't follow your stupid religion get singled out to a horrible place? We didn't do anything wrong we just chose to be logical and know more then just the answer"because god"
Lasse Hauberg
PIcking the 2nd opition on this one. When i would finally meet my maker, he would judge me for who i had been throughout my life. Not who i had been because i thought there would be eternal damnation for me if i did anything wrong.
DebunkingAtheists
He would judge you for who you had been throughout your life, an unrepentant sinner deserving of Hell. Great. As CS Lewis said, that Hell's gates will be locked from the inside. So you lived your whole life not having God's will be done, God being so good will grant YOUR will be done, and that is separation from Him.
Lasse Hauberg
So what you are telling me is that there are no good atheists, what so ever? hat if i do not believe in your God, everything i do is evil?
Lasse Hauberg
*That - Sorry about that one.
DebunkingAtheists
Romans 3:10 is pretty clear about you being evil or not. John 3:19,20 clearly reveals what some do with that information.
Lasse Hauberg
Would you please clarify this for me, then: If I live my life, never harming anyone, never lying, never being jealous, you know, generally being a good man, I will go to hell because I didn't believe in your God? But Robert Chambliss, the man responsible for the 1963 Birmingham church bombings, will go to heaven because he asked foriveness from a priest, on his deathbed?
DebunkingAtheists
You will go to Hell for your unrepentant sinning. You are not sinless. Romans 3:10 Not placing God first in your life (1st Commandment) is still sinning. It is placed first for a reason. It is a pretty important one. You break the 2nd Commandment when you make a god to suite yourself, yes that includes the god of "self". “This, then, is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed. But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.” ~John 3:19-21
Lasse Hauberg
I will have do asume, that you are sying Chambliss would go to heaven then. And if that is the case, then i seriously doubt the "pure snow-white righteousness" of your God. Oh, and by the way according to yourselves, you should also be going to hell. Do you not also make a God to suite yourselve, when you appear to deliberatly ignore the parts of the bible that does not fit your own agenda?
Lasse Hauberg
Oh, and sorry for the bad grammar. That comment was typed in quite rush.
DebunkingAtheists
Christians are not perfect, we're forgiven. It is an alien righteousness. What am I deliberately ignoring?
Lasse Hauberg
As a full work, the bible can be summarized by this sentence: God forgives. By only citing the parts of the bible saying that "You're all going to hell because you don't believe in God!" you give a wrong impression of it. Wouldn't this count as making God "suite yourself"?
DebunkingAtheists
Actually you just committed a taxi cab fallacy. In other words you stop once you arrived your destination without taking the entire Scriptures into account. Scripture states that God is a God of judgment and righteousness. You cannot believe that God loves unrepentant sinners. Romans 9:13, Proverbs 14:17 The question is should we hate what God hates? Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Lev. 20:23, Prov. 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15 If the God I speak about is the God of Scripture, how is that making a god to suite myself? You do understand when you say god would never do that, (What Scripture says He will do) you ARE creating a god to suit yourself and therefore breaking a Commandment. But that is the least of your problems because Scripture reveals you as an antichrist. "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son." ~1 John 2:22 "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." ~1 John 4:3
Lasse Hauberg
*sigh* Arguing with you is like trying to play chess with a pigeon...
DebunkingAtheists
i am sure it is frustrating losing to a pigeon playing chess, but that does not change the reality that you're wrong. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
Julie630
Would rather live for something than myself. If I found there was no god at least it would mean no heaven or hell so it wouldn't even matter. I would just disappear. I'm actually really surprised that more people didn't vote this way...
Ralathon
I wish there was the god you believe in just so I could look her in the eye and say even the worst human is better than the likes of you. Also Lucifer based off the bible was a much better entity.
DebunkingAtheists
You already KNOW the God I believe in as He has been revealed to all mankind Romans 1:18-23 Oh, BTW, Atheists believe in the same god as Satanists. The god of "self" (bit.ly/AtheistsSatanists)
Brittany Parker
If Christianity is true, there's going to be a lot of kick ass people in Hell.
DebunkingAtheists
If you end up in Hell and lest it was you who placed you there and you had the power, your entire life, to get yourself out. But as those criminals in jail say "at least I get three square meals a day and have a roof over my head" You will be where you want to be. My dad said "At least I will be with my friends" I replied "its not Club Med, its Hell, what makes you think there will be a reunion with people you like? Its called Hell (Despair) for a good reason" Please, with sugar on top, just think about it.
Nicholas
The thing here is, Debunk, everyone has different beliefs. Everyone has different opinions. I respect the fact that you believe in god. I Myself, am a Wiccan, we believe that we should never hurt anyone no matter what. Now tell me- What about all the "Witches" That were hanged and all the crusades that were carried out in "Gods" Name. Innocent people were killed because of them. And if God did want people to believe in him then why is he not here saying that he is? Why is there so much strife in the world? Why is there so much suffering? If God really is this all powerful benevolent being, then why isn't he helping us humans? And maybe this is a bit overused, but I have a quote for you, since you yourself seem so fond of using them. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he able and willing? then whence cometh the Evil? is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? ~Epicurus If he really is "God" The he shouldn't let there be so much strife and evil in the world today. He'd be accepting of other peoples beliefs, and he'd love them no matter what.
DebunkingAtheists
@Nicholas -For the "Witches" point, by associating false religions to mine is called a hasty generalization fallacy. It would be like calling all Wiccans, satanists. Yes, false religions do bad things. Scripture says to evaluate everything to see if it is of God by its fruit, good tree = good fruit; a bad tree can never bear good fruit. We don’t even have to address the Catholic Church with the mass pedophiles, and the crusades, to determine the fruit because it is obvious. Why is there so much strife in the world? Creation fell when Adam fell, therefore sin, so to speak, killed creation. As a result, we live in an imperfect world, with the effects of sin running through it. We see that the universe is running down. That is, everything is moving toward chaos, becoming less organized. Furthermore, because sin is in the world, mankind is unable to live in harmony. Nations rise against nations, and peoples against peoples. War and conflict occur with the loss of life, and with injuries to those who survive. Devastation is left in its wake. You want someone to blame, look in the mirror. Our sinning caused all this. For the Epicurus quote, I have already said that, you and I seem to be in disagreement with regards to the meaning of ‘omnipotent’. Omnipotence simply means ‘all powerful’ and does not include the ability to do the logically impossible, as logic is a reflection of the very absolute character and nature of God. God cannot contradict His own character, as then he would be able to be both ‘God’ and ‘not God’ at the same time and in the same way, which means He could also be both omnipotent and not omnipotent as well (which is absurd, of course). It’s also important to note that the ability to contradict oneself is not a ‘power’, but a weakness and is necessarily precluded from the scope of omnipotence by definition. As for omnibenevolence, ‘good’ is that which comports with the absolute character and nature of God. Since God is the very standard of ‘good’, He cannot do evil, as this would require Him to contradict His character, which, again, is not possible. God has a morally sufficient reason for the evil that exists. The thing is, you cannot even complain as to why it is evil. You have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs. Without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc. This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
deaudrey011
@DebunkingAtheists "My argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth". What the hell ever. If you're not trying to convince others, please refrain from commenting on every comment. I thought you said what you were "commanded" to say.
DebunkingAtheists
Look, I fully understand that truth always is confrontational, there is always someone on the wrong side of truth. This is a very serious and real subject for me. If I didn't love you enough to tell you the truth, then I wouldn't. Now, to those to whom the gospel message is uncomfortable, it is received quite differently. When Jesus preached in His hometown at first they were amazed at His Words, but by the end of His sermon they tried to throw Him off a cliff (Luke 4: 14-30) The truth sometimes moves people to want to throw us off cliffs, but if we withhold the truth due to the reaction we might receive, then we are not teaching like our Lord.
deaudrey011
I understand that your paragraph was supposed to move me, but it didn't. I never said that you weren't speaking the truth. Bottom line is that you're not proving anything to anybody. Let people find out for themselves. It's not your job to try and win souls over the internet. Give it up.
DebunkingAtheists
Let people find out for themselves? Is that Biblical? You might want to reread 2 Timothy 4:2 and reassess that position.
deaudrey011
Yes, people do need to come to their own conclusions instead of being forced. No, I will not read that verse.
Laurence 'Lewy' Town
Lol at these two, bless... audrey if you think all of us are going to be tortured in hell for eternity and your not trying to convert us you are evil, the other guy is just simple
deaudrey011
*You're
Karthus
If there isn't a God in the afterlife, there also wouldn't be a Heaven or a Hell. In the other option, Hell would be guaranteed. Nothingness>Hell
Matthew
I'm agnostic but if red is right I think I go to hell if it's talking about the christian god so I'm gonna go with blue :P
deaudrey011
DebunkingAtheists you can't really debunk anything without providing proper evidence. You're repeating the same thing to no avail. You wonder why your thought isn't getting across? Your system is flawed. If you want people to believe, provide valid reasons why. Your basically saying that God exists because he does. By the way, this question is also flawed. You're damned if you do and dames if you don't.
DebunkingAtheists
We say that all evidence is evidence of God, even one's very ability to reason about evidence. Getting across? My argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, 'convincing' is out of my hands.
Mastortrole Skb
What exactly do you mean my "all evidence"?
Shrapnel
So live a life that is based around morality (read the Bible) and have nothing to lose or live however and burn for all eternity? I respect other peoples' opinions, but I can't see the logic in pushing red.
saladfingers
Oh my fucking lord this debunkinathiest guy is really a moron. As a religious person (I'm Jewish) i urge you all to ignore this person's religious mouthful of crap and don't buy anyone's religious crap unless it really makes sense to you. And the Bible is not proof of anything. keep your religion to yourself. I think that's what the lesson of life is. If there's anything to take out of this world, it's this message.
DebunkingAtheists
So you blaspheme right off the bat. Barely assert with a fallacious argument and insults. But my question is, how do you know your reasoning is valid?
saladfingers
Moron, just shut. the fuck. up. you make no sense. how do YOU know your reasoning is valid? What makes you think you're so special that you can challenge everyone else's beliefs, but never have to prove your own? You would fail miserably in a debate. About anything.
DebunkingAtheists
I am certain of God with the same way I can be certain of anything. Through His natural and special revelations. How am I certain that the revelation is valid? Because God has revealed it such that WE can be certain of it. God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God. We call it self deception. Self deception is very powerful to the mind. This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
saladfingers
oh lord. just keep your crap to yourself. you only make sense to yourself, did you know that?so maybe try using different wording... or none at all. that would be nice.
saladfingers
and by the way, I believe in god, i'm just not trying to convince everyone he exists by using vague, convoluted arguments. I don't believe that's my job.
DebunkingAtheists
"I don't believe that's my job. " How do you know your reasoning is valid? You obviously do not know your Bible either. 2 Timothy 4:2. So, I would rather now ask you to repent, for your sake.
EridolfHitlora
Nobody said it had to be a Christian God. It could be a god that is much cooler and more forgiving than the Christian one.
DebunkingAtheists
We accept the Christian faith as the grounds of all logic, because we accept the notion that scripture teaches there is only one God, he's the creator of all things and thus he created logic. For the unbeliever, he/she must first believe in Christ and repent before they can ever come to any conclusions at all about anything at all. If they have no basis in which to place their faith in logic or exists then they've yet to understand that logic or matter exists because their faith is based in logic and reason itself, yet you can't use either to explain where either originated from (enter circular reasoning). They must assume and accept that both logic and reason originated from a single omnipotent source because without that source, there is no logic or reason, man didn't create logic or reason, we only use them as the tools that were provided to us by God. If we say there is no God, then we put the cart before the horse and look pretty stupid... As for which God (which I believe is where this argument gets hung up) that falls to the legitimacy of the scriptures and the foundation of where the God you serve comes from. I lean on the God of the Bible, not only because he revealed himself to me and I chose to accept and believe on his son, and because the endless truth IN scriptures let alone the countless prophecies that God's word has spoken that have come true and are still coming true. The God of Israel and the Bible is real and the only true God, not because I say so, but because He does. ~proof that God exists dot org
EridolfHitlora
that has nothing to do with what my point was though
DebunkingAtheists
Your "point" was misguided and I wanted to point that out to you in love. I love you enough to tell you the truth. How do you know your reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong about what you claim to know?
EridolfHitlora
that's pretty bigoted of you
EridolfHitlora
and i could ask the same "How do you know your reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong about what you claim to know? " to you and you wouldn't be able to give a logical response
DebunkingAtheists
@EridolfHitlora // i could ask the same "How do you know your reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong about what you claim to know?// Same way I can be certain of anything R E V E L A T I O N. How am I certain that the revelation is valid? Because God has revealed it such that WE can be certain of it. God has revealed Himself to EVERYONE, and that this is exposed with every truth claim, every knowledge claim, and even every rational thought you have. //" to you and you wouldn't be able to give a logical response // How do you know what I could or could not do? Are you certain that I could not? IF so, how can you be certain in an atheistic worldview? Now your turn. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
Turtles
I would rather live my life the way that I want to over living my life the way someone/thing else wants. Sure I may be likely suffer afterwards but as long as I have a good life, then I don't have any reason to complain. Living is a big struggle, being in heaven or hell isn't, it's just boring. Heaven can't be heaven forever and the same goes for hell. And the god that may exist might not even be one that any of us believe in. For all we know, we may have to be preaching to some great insect overlord. The afterlife (If there is one) would probably be totally different and being part of the good part of the afterlife (If there is one) may need totally different requirements to gain access to.
DebunkingAtheists
How do you know your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid? “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” (1 Corinthians 1: 18-20) “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2: 14) Salvation is not just for the next life only - Not only did Christ's death and resurrection save souls for eternity, it saves our reasoning now. Again, I beg you to repent and turn from rejecting the God you know exists, and accept the free gift of Jesus Christ's payment for your sins, so that you might be saved from Hell, spend an eternity with God, AND have a firm foundation for your reasoning NOW.
alex
If you claim to do things for a god, you aren't doing what you think is right, but what someone else (you don't talk to god) says is right. If you think for yourself to make your decisions, any reasonably intelligent god would accept you as a good person if you chose to make good decisions.
DebunkingAtheists
No, enacting God's will gets you in trouble. That is what Brigham Young, Roman Catholic Church, and even Andrea Yates did. They were wrong, horribly wrong. But before we address that, you have made some assumptions of your point [good person, good decisions] that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. You have just invoked a moral law, or standard, in raising that claim [good person, good decisions] that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs. How can you appeal to anything that is considered "good" in an atheistic worldview? I would ask you to try to be more consistent with your professed worldview if indeed atheistic, but rather I urge you to repent of it. ---
Darko
Well, at least when I meet these deity(s), I'd go where I wanted to; Hell :)
DebunkingAtheists
Yea, Hell's gates will be locked from the inside that is for sure. God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God.
[deleted]
Explain to me how God has revealed himself to us all?? If he did then we'd all know he existed and nobody would be in disagreement anymore. God has never revealed himself and that is why some people do not believe in his existence, like me for instance.
Asher
It would be too disapointing to find out something I believed in was false, but to find out something I didn't believe in was true would be fine.
DebunkingAtheists
God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sin against the God that they do know.
Donald Rink
Quoting the bible as truth isn't a good way to make people think that you are smart
DebunkingAtheists
What do you consider truth then? Also, assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God, because you do not believe God exists, is question begging. As My buddy Sye said over at proofthatGodexists.org, "The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypothetical in science, logic, reason, etc. This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
LoyalJoker
Why do people keep on asking these stupid religious questions? We know you believe in a God, but stop shoving it down everyone's throat. Everybody believes in something different. People just have to except that. Live and let live. Let them be happy believing what they want to believe, stop trying to change it.
I<3Fallout
I chose wrong
Sofi
Chillin with Satan yo.